I'm not too much in agreement with this logic... So, I feel I have wasted a bunch of time, but Treehouse got money...

What I am talking about is finally getting started using IDEs. I can completely and honestly see the logic of trying to start off with something VERY basic, and build up from there (such as what we did with starting with only using console applications with no IDE whatsoever). In a very, very, small sense I can agree with that decision, even with the argument made by instructors that there might be just too many higher end stuff that can be "distractions".

However, to me it makes more sense to specifically choose an IDE that you will be teaching students on, create a short or full length course on all the ins and outs of the chosen IDE and how to work it (Microsoft Expression Web 4 and the rest of the suite did this in a book, with project files so you knew what you were doing even if you didn't understand HTML and what not), and THEN start with the Java basics utilizing intelliJ, or whatever IDE Treehouse has chosen to use for instruction. There is some good practice to be had doing some of the work in Workspaces, and then importing it to intelliJ.

And just a side note about Workspaces... It works well for what it does, and I enjoy using it, but myself, along with MANY other users that I have seen comment get some MAJOR frustrations out of the whole Workspaces world. The two main ones are the fact that you are limited to how many Workspaces you can keep, and then there are those instructors (such as the one teaching Full Stack JavaScript, I believe) that make you open a NEW Workspace for each video!

IF we WANTED to keep any of our work in Workspaces for nostalgia, or just to constantly come back and tinker on, that gets pretty hard when trying to advance and constantly having to add more and more to the limited number we can keep. There IS a LOT of deleting that must happen. Going ahead and using the IDE from the beginning can get rid of that issue since there will be no limited space barring the user from keeping what they want to. But, I digress...

So, basically what has happened is we have learned a handful of Java, some about console applications, learned some about how to use Workspaces, as well as the useless REPL and JSHELL getting in the way of learning actual Java (I only mean both of those are almost useless to a complete Java beginner that needs to focus on the language, and not some random tool they might or might not ever use (clearly, almost all folks that go on to become Java programmers will be using an IDE of some sort, and the IDEs that I have tinkered around a bit with have a "console" in them for using console applications which is exactly what we have been doing up to this point).

Most importantly from all of this is that I can honestly say that MY learning experience on Treehouse has been stifled at certain points because of this particular chosen order of the subject matter, and the methods they are being taught to us. It is also not just me as I have seen several other users post about having to go back over videos multiple times, or they feel really good up to a point and then hit a block.

While there is no getting around it, a LOT of users pass Code Challenges and quizzes solely by posting a question in the forum for someone answer and supply the answer code that works, or worse, they go copy/paste the question into a Google search to find what someone else posted for an acceptable answer. I am guilty of this, and any quick search through the question forums and on Google can exhibit this.

By ANY metric, this is NOT good and does not show that Treehouse is putting out a quality product. I am not a lazy person that likes to cut corners, so I know there are many others out there that are also not lazy and like to cut corners. I am here to LEARN. I am paying money to LEARN. While some people breeze right through how Treehouse does it, and you can't have a one size fits all, I think that with any diligent research, you guys will find that people really are not learning and retaining and just passing because of copy/paste.

In my opinion, this is a direct result of how Treehouse has chosen to prioritize, or order how things are taught on here. To be honest, this is not a "great" product (as it stands), and I would shudder at rating the Pro level and the Techdegree.

I think that if we would have started the Java track out with a course explaining how to use intelliJ, a brief lesson on Workspaces, and then moved on into Java itself immediately following, and leaving REPL and JSHELL for their own standalone lessons or "Workshops", the learning would have been much more efficient and the new knowledge retained at a LOT higher of a rate. Not just for me, but for everyone.

So, while I understand all the "WHYs" certain Instructors have said they were waiting till later to dive into IDEs and the sort, can Craig Dennis tell me why him, his team, and maybe why Treehouse made the decision to do like this when it seems like things so easily lose steam how they are? I mean, a lot of this really does resemble "putting the cart before he horse".

Even if the answer is, "My bad Mike. We here at Treehouse are a private company and we have to focus on making profits, so since this IS a subscription based revenue stream, we are somewhat okay with things taking a bit longer to stick in so that you keep going back to watch videos, and ensuring we get another month subscription paid out of a user."

Lol honestly, I would be totally okay with that kind of response. I'm going to stick around regardless because I like Craig Dennis and a couple of the other instructors, and don't think that I'm writing an angry letter. I'm in good spirits and just thought I would ask what has been on my mind for a good bit now lol.

Thanks for everything, guys. Love the site.