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In this episode, Treehouse Teacher, James Churchill, talks to Alena Holligan about the role of design in software development.
Mentioned References
- Art Institute of Phoenix
- Adobe Director (formerly Macromedia Director)
- What is a LOB application?
- Twitter Boostrap
- Foundation
- Developer 2.0 - Michael Loop
- DevOps
- Universal Principles of Design - William Lidwell, Kritina Holden, and Jill Butler
- Design for Non-Designers - Robin Williams
- COLOURlovers Website
Other Resoures
- Development Is Design
- Building a Product? This Is The Team You Need To Build Your MVP
- Why You Shouldn't Hire a UI/UX Designer
- Why The Valley Wants Designers That Can Code
- What's the Difference Between a Web Designer and Web Developer?
- The Front End Developer's Dilemma
- Job Titles in the Web Industry
- The difference between a UX Designer and UI Developer
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Welcome to the Dev Team Show.
0:00
My name is James.
0:01
In this episode,
0:02
we're gonna talk about the role of
design in software development.
0:04
[SOUND] Joining me today,
is Alena Holligan.
0:07
Alena is a teacher here at Treehouse and
she leads a local PHP user group.
0:12
Welcome to the show, Alena.
0:18
>> Thanks for having me James.
0:19
>> So, recently, we discovered
that we had a shared background.
0:21
So if I go back far enough,
>> [LAUGH]
0:25
>> From when I started
0:27
doing development work,
I worked as a designer in the 90s.
0:28
I started with print design,
and then did that for
0:32
a number of years before I realized that,
so to speak, the writing was on
0:35
the wall that print design wasn't going
to be a thing for too much longer.
0:39
And so I started like doing more digital
design and specifically web design.
0:43
I did that for a number of years and then
eventually someone gave me the shove and
0:47
said hey you should learn development.
0:50
And so I did that.
0:52
And then I kind of hid the design part of
me because I wanted to be taken as this
0:53
serious developer.
0:57
So tell me a little bit
about your background.
0:58
>> Well, I always thought development
would be the most boring job ever.
1:01
I had an uncle that was a programmer and
just the idea of programming
1:04
line after line seemed like
the most boring job in the world.
1:09
>> Yeah?
1:12
>> I was very into art.
1:13
I like painting, sculpture,
ceramics, all of that stuff.
1:13
So I started in art,
I thought I would go in that direction,
1:17
I went to the digital art.
1:22
I went to the Art Institute of Phoenix,
and
1:25
Got my degree in multimedia since I
couldn't decide on just one thing.
1:28
So I went to the computer way but
1:32
I still didn't really feel
like computers are [SOUND].
1:35
Okay computers, I can do it for design but
that whole programing thing, [SOUND].
1:39
And then I got introduced to Macromedia's
director, which was like, Flash.
1:45
But they had, you could do a lot
of drag and drop and design, and
1:52
here's what I want it to look like.
1:55
But then if I wanted to do something, I
had to get in the back-end and program it.
1:57
And so I started to realize that
programming was really designing and
2:02
making something work.
2:06
>> And I was like, it's a puzzle and
I can figure it, and
2:08
all of the sudden, this is really fun
>> [LAUGH]
2:11
>> So I still like design stuff, but
2:14
I've gotten more and
more into programming,
2:16
less and
less into the design aspect of it.
2:18
>> Yeah.
It's interesting, so
2:21
the reason why I wanna talk about the role
of designers software development is,
2:23
I've done a lot of variety of development
work as a consultant over the years.
2:28
And some of it is straightforward line
of business application development.
2:33
So it's not public facing.
2:40
You're building an application for a group
of employees in a company for instance.
2:41
Sometimes design just doesn't enter into
the picture for those kinds of projects.
2:48
Now to be clear, I've absolutely have
worked on projects that were more
2:53
publically facing websites or mobile apps
where design was part of the process.
2:58
Maybe less successfully or more
successfully in certain situations, but
3:04
sometimes it just doesn't
enter into the picture at all.
3:08
And so I kind of want to talk a little
bit about like why that happens or
3:11
the downsides of that.
3:16
Well, first of all, have you had that
experience of working on a project
3:18
where there just design isn't like
something that money is spent on.
3:22
I've been guilty of doing
the same thing myself.
3:27
>> [LAUGH]
>> Just like,
3:29
I should know better as coming from
design that how important it is.
3:30
I should know this but I was too busy
working on how it would function.
3:34
And forgetting what it looked like and
the biggest problem with that is that
3:40
People are like it doesn't look good.
3:46
I don't like it or how does this work?
3:51
Or.
>> [LAUGH]
3:53
>> This doesn't work,
3:54
they wouldn't accept even if it functions.
3:55
Getting them to accept it as this is nice.
3:59
It was never this is nice,
okay that works maybe but
4:02
nobody could ever get to
the point where it was like.
4:06
Getting them on board with how it worked.
4:09
>> So that's interesting.
4:11
There is something about the design
process itself and to be clear,
4:13
we're talking about like visual design or
4:16
sometimes there's an element
of interactive design as well.
4:19
There's something about that process
that changes like how you get going.
4:23
People, your in users are more easily able
to relate to something that is visual.
4:30
They are sitting down and
reading through a bunch of use cases or
4:35
talking about what requirement
of the application are.
4:39
>> Yeah. [LAUGH] >> So, if you are able
to put something whether that's images.
4:43
Or sometimes even like
a non-functional prototype.
4:48
If you're doing web design, maybe it's
something that's actually in the browser
4:52
and people are able to get that and
4:57
that starts the conversation earlier with
whether or not what you're building.
4:59
It's actually gonna work for
them like this does makes sense,
5:04
this is match up with their
business process, for instance.
5:06
Yes, I think one of the hardest things
is pulling requirements out of people.
5:10
>> Yeah, absolutely.
5:14
>> And
that's really where design can help,
5:16
because from the beginning people have
a hard time articulating what they want.
5:19
And at least, I as a designer
had thing ideas in my head and
5:26
I just expect everybody to be
able to see what I'm explaining.
5:31
But a lot of people can't
see things visually and
5:34
they had to actually see in some sort
of format whether, it's print format or
5:37
something on their computer to
see how that idea might function.
5:42
And so that really helps to bring
along that conversation is,
5:47
is this what you were looking for?
5:52
How about if we do these things?
5:54
And being able to show them visually
where things might go could be helpful.
5:56
>> Yeah, and
it's not that infrequent, as well,
6:01
that users just sometimes
are afraid to speak up.
6:05
As developers we can sometimes be
an intimidating type of person.
6:08
[LAUGH] To interact with and
6:12
no one likes to look like they don't
know what they're talking about.
6:14
So in a context of meeting of users,
sometimes the person that
6:17
you need to talk won't offer up
that information if they feel like.
6:21
Well, I don't know if I wanna say that cuz
maybe they already know that, or maybe
6:25
that's just gonna make me look you know
like I don't know what I'm talking about.
6:29
And I think that having that visual
design process in someone who's
6:32
really experienced at that, and can more
easily get inside the mind of the user,
6:37
can create an environment where
people are more willing to share, or
6:42
they can kind of know what
questions to ask as well.
6:45
>> Yeah, I find it useful.
6:49
You don't even have to create the designs
yourself, but even grabbing some visual
6:51
queues from other websites that might
be like, you're trying to produce, or
6:55
apps, or something that you want to
display so you have something to discuss.
7:00
What about this do you like, and what
about this one do you like type of thing,
7:05
so you have some basic foundation
where you can start to talk.
7:09
So even if you don't do all the work right
up front, even grabbing something to
7:13
talk about, having that visual
appeal in front of them to say,
7:18
to be able to talk in a manner
that's visually Stimulating and
7:23
they can say, this I like,
and this I don't like.
7:28
And it's a little bit easier to kind of
7:32
move the conversation
in the right direction.
7:35
>> Yeah, and as developer,
you mentioned this a little bit earlier,
7:37
you said, it's really easy to get in
that mode of getting something done.
7:42
So, maybe you have some requirements.
7:47
You've been given a description
of what needs to be done.
7:49
And you jump in day one, and
you start building out your database.
7:52
Or you start making data or something
appear on the page, so you feel like,
7:55
yeah, I got something done today.
8:00
And kinda puts the cart in the front
of the horse a little bit there.
8:02
Cuz you run the risk of building something
to your understanding which may or
8:06
may not actually align with
the thing that needs to be built.
8:11
>> For some reason, people just
don't get as excited about staff.
8:16
Look what I made work!
8:19
And it seems so easy.
8:22
They just see the end result.
8:24
They don't see what that took
to program in the back end.
8:25
>> Yeah, and I think there's
probably even more so today.
8:29
Tools like Bootstrap, for instance or
foundation make it easy to kind of
8:32
just like do mark up in a certain way and
kind of slap some classes on things and
8:38
you end up with something
that looks pretty good.
8:43
It doesn't look like it wasn't
visually designed at all.
8:46
But you're still kinda of missing some of
those important parts of the process of
8:51
this discussion that we were talking
about that happened earlier on.
8:55
I think there you know we
can become too complacent or
9:00
too comfortable with just
using those tools and
9:02
not like actually going through the
process as as it probably opt to be done.
9:05
>> Helping to start this step the user
through the process and it's not,
9:13
I think it helps as you're talking,
9:17
talking about what should
happen in a visual way as well
9:22
as getting into what should happen in
the back end, I think it can be easier.
9:27
To help get the business
requirements that way,
9:32
as long as you come at it from
that kind of requirements.
9:35
What would you like to see,
how would you see this?
9:39
What kinds of things would you
like to be able to do, and
9:43
where would you look for
that and how would you?
9:47
And if you can bring them through that,
9:51
you can actually pull
a lot more requirements.
9:53
And get to how things actually need to
function a lot faster than building
9:56
something that doesn't work in the first
place the way they think it should work.
10:02
But you can't get what
they think it should work
10:08
because you can't get into their
head unless you pull it out.
10:10
>> Have you had the situation of
where the design process is done.
10:14
But it's done by a completely
different team or person.
10:19
And you're not involved in
that as a developer, and
10:23
you're just kind of handed these,
here's a design, and
10:26
it's a collection of images or
comps or something.
10:30
And get busy and build this thing.
10:33
So you're not part of the conversation.
10:36
And furthermore, like the designer then
sort of just washes their hands and
10:38
says my job is done.
10:41
[LAUGH] That's not really
the way to do things.
10:44
>> I've had that where it works or
doesn't work, I guess I should say.
10:49
[LAUGH]
>> And that the designer might give you
10:56
something that doesn't really work for
the functionality, but
10:57
if you can't talk to them about
what needs to happen here, Or
11:02
you tend to try to fiddle
with the design yourself.
11:06
And then you've lost contacts and
then everybody is unhappy.
11:12
Whereas that communication with
the design can be really helpful and
11:16
it can help to build
a relationship with them.
11:20
So that they know how
things need to work And
11:24
you also know how to ask for something.
11:27
So having that communicate those
lines of communication open,
11:31
can help make the design a lot better and
the process a lot easier.
11:34
>> Recently, I read a blog post where the
person made the sort of the argument or
11:40
the case for.
11:45
We think what a developer should be.
11:46
You call the developer 2.0.
11:48
So the idea being that modern apps,
whether that be web apps or
11:50
mobile apps or whatever is the situation.
11:55
It's gotten to the point where designers
need developers to fully think through,
11:59
how the technology can work,
what is available.
12:05
Can we use touch?
12:08
How can we use location services or
things like that?
12:11
And then on the flip side,
developers need designers in order to be
12:16
fully successful in developing products or
applications.
12:21
And there's lingo in both of these areas,
which is what you were just alluding to.
12:24
And if developers don't know
how to talk to designers, and
12:29
understand the way that they way
that they look at the world and
12:32
the words that they're gonna
use to describe things.
12:36
In the interest of that, you know,
if designers don't understand the lingo
12:40
of developers, then that process isn't
gonna work as well as it should.
12:43
And there is something
absolutely to be gained for
12:48
both sides to sort of meet in the middle.
12:51
For designers to learn some aspects of
developement and the opposite of that.
12:53
Like for developers to invest some time
and energy in learning about design.
12:59
>> I'm really excited to see where
this is going soon in the future.
13:05
We've had so
much discussion about dev ops,
13:09
where the dev needs to know
some of the backend and
13:12
how it works, the operations of
actually setting up a computer.
13:15
And that can taken get too far where it's
okay the developer's going to do all
13:20
of this.
13:24
May not be the best thing.
13:25
>> [LAUGH]
>> And
13:26
you can do the same thing
with the front end.
13:27
And now there's discussion about
developers knowing design and
13:30
learning some of the design.
13:34
But again, you can go too far into that,
and expect them to know everything.
13:36
Well, when you aren't able to specialize,
you know, this jack-of-all-trades,
13:41
master of none can be very true, and
it can be hard to get the best out of it.
13:47
But be able to understand, How to talk to
these different areas can be very helpful.
13:53
So being able to discuss with
a designer about your development or
14:00
where this project should
go can be very helpful in
14:06
bridging that gap and
making it most effective,
14:11
the quickest and
smoothest process that you can have.
14:15
But also understanding that
the developer has tools and
14:21
has experience that
the designer might not have.
14:24
Whereas the designer might
have these tools and
14:28
experience that
the developer doesn't have.
14:32
You don't have time to learn everything,
so use people's skills and
14:36
what they do have, and respect each
other and what you bring to the table.
14:40
>> Yeah, definitely, it's good advice.
14:46
And the more that you can understand
about each other's roles and sort
14:48
of what's involved in that you won't miss
the opportunities that come along, righty.
14:54
So, there's been times when I've been
encode, working on projects, you know,
14:58
that it had great design support and
you're implementing something and
15:05
if you can kind of like shift
between that implementation.
15:10
Notice the opportunity or recognize and
say, what if we made this change.
15:15
And you can reach out in the moment and
15:21
describe that to the signer in a way
that they can quickly understand.
15:23
And so you have that shared that shared
lingo in a way of talking about things.
15:28
There's some really cool things that can
happen in projects when you kinda get into
15:33
that space.
15:37
>> Very, very true.
15:39
But I think it's important that
whether you're a developer or
15:40
a, [SOUND], a front end developer or
a back end developer,
15:46
knowing some basic concepts
about design can help you even
15:50
put together a wireframe more simply.
15:55
Get your ideas and
talk about ideas in a more broad sense.
15:58
So understanding some of the basics
about how you would come up with design.
16:06
Just simplify ideas a little bit,
you know.
16:11
It can be really helpful for
coming up with ideas in the first place.
16:15
>> Yeah,
came across a really great book this week.
16:22
It's called Universal Principles
of Design by William Lidwell.
16:26
It's a great book, it's alphabetical.
16:30
It's like an encyclopedia or
visual dictionary of design principles.
16:33
You can just pick it up,
flip to a page, read about something.
16:39
Really interesting in kind of a bite sized
way to start to get a foot in that world.
16:43
>> Yes.
16:50
Definitely something that people
should all try to strive towards.
16:51
[LAUGH] Learn a little bit more.
16:55
>> So, that was one resource
that I recently came across.
16:58
Is there any resources that you
have used over the years, or
17:00
recently that you've found helpful?
17:04
>> Well, one that I've recommended for
a lot of people who are not designers,
17:05
whether tere are that developers or
17:10
even people trying to put together
a newsletter for their business.
17:13
Is design for nine designer by Robbin
Williams not that Robbin Williams [LAUGH].
17:16
And it very simply gives you some
17:24
kinda step by step things that you can
do with your design to make it better.
17:28
But you might go, this doesn't look right.
17:34
But I don't know what to do about it.
17:36
Well, this can give you some step by step
kind of things that you can think about to
17:38
try this.
17:42
>> That sounds great.
17:43
>> So just to clean it up.
17:44
There's lots of resources
on the web getting ideas.
17:45
I like the colory lovers website.
17:48
Just for getting pallet ideas and
things how this palette can work
17:49
in different visual ways and
just different places where you
17:55
can get ideas on what you liked so
you can see things visually.
18:00
What works, what doesn't work.
18:04
There are a lot of different resources out
there just doing a search on the web for
18:06
different templates or visual aides.
18:11
>> Yeah, absolutely.
18:15
And we'll get those into the show and out
as well, and make those easier to find for
18:16
people too, so.
18:20
Well, thanks for joining me, and
talking about the role design.
18:21
>> Well, you are welcome and
thanks for having me.
18:25
>> Excellent.
18:27
>> So, be sure to check the notes
that accompany this video for
18:29
links to additional resources, and some
of the things that we talked about today.
18:31
And also, be sure to rate the video and
let us know how we're doing.
18:35
Or, if you have a topic that you'd
like to see us discuss in the future,
18:38
let us know about that too.
18:41
Thanks for watching and
we'll see you next time.
18:43
[SOUND]
18:45
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